Comments on: Christians and the Problem of the FLDS Church

By: The Thrill of Competition and Trying Harder | It's Different For Girls

The Thrill of Competition and Trying Harder | It's Different For Girls — Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:18:59 +0000

[...] offered to guest blog this post on her popular Teens Today blog bringing me new readers including Tim “The Fool Man” who made a comment well worth reading below. Actually all of the comments for this post are great, [...]

By: Daniel Stiegel

Daniel Stiegel — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 21:05:17 +0000

I thought you might be interested in this website. It discusses the deep doctrines of Mormonism and particularly the FLDS Church and contrasts them with Biblical Christianity.

http://sites.google.com/site/fessupjessop/

By: Tyler Stewart

Tyler Stewart — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 05:59:25 +0000

I’d like to piggyback on what the previous responder, Alex, touched on. Do you ever wonder if commiting to bringing up a child in Christ is commiting to brainwashing that child before he has an opportunity to make a legitimate decision? I think back to the not so long ago days where I was forced to get up on Sundays, listen to the sermons and enjoy wonderfully illustrated felt board stories, and hear only of the love of Christ and what one should do in response to that love. The same applies to the week long crash courses where the “Truth of Christ” is pronounced proudly to children as they spend an entire week learning only the Christian perception of religion in Vacation Bible School. I go back and forth with this issue. In my experience, I feel like the ability to make a truly independent, conscious decision about the spiritual truth one follows is highly deterred by expectations of the family and those one grows up around. Had I been brought up by muslims I would likely be a muslim. Had I been brought up by Jews I would have likely been a Jew. SInce i was brought up by Christian parents I have an affinity for the teachings of Christianity.

Now I understand the stark difference between this little thought exercise and the situation described in the post. If a parent were to bring up a child in a loving Chrisitianity that did not allow for morally reprehensible actions then at least the teachings would contribute to a morally functional member of society. I do, though, wonder if the hijacking of a mind is, at least at some level, slightly immoral or reprehensible. In many ways a Christian parent, while desiring the best for the child, removes one of the greatest intellectual, emotional, and spiritual pursuits that one might ever have in his life. Is it the case that the church and parents who dedicate their children to a faith are participating in what in the end is simply brainwashing?

Where this thought requires a little four-wheel action to save itself from running off a cliff comes with, “What do we do with the kids if we do not want to brainwash them but also want to share with them what we believe?” This is a question that I have no answer. I also am not a parent so it is a question that I cannot experientially make any quality claim.

Just some thoughts, not meant to be remarkable or anything of the sort, just wondering…

By: Tonya Tippetts Olsen

Tonya Tippetts Olsen — Tue, 20 May 2008 18:05:11 +0000

I thank you for your soul searching about this issue, but I think that it misses the point. I think its wonderful that christian children want to come forward to make a “profession of faith.” It shows that peer pressure is working correctly and the child has been raised to conform to their parents ideals.

I was raised in Utah. I remember when the “plygs” changed costume. They felt that it would raise tourist interest in Utah if the looked like the “Amish” of Utah. I farmed for 10 years in central Utah and have had my life threatened several times by “plyg” factions that are started up by the missing or “Lost” boys.

The sad fact is that while the girls may be valued and cared for nicely the boys are not. Ervil Lebaron was one such lunitic, if you need information about the repercussions of that lifestyle. In my youth I have seen a family throw 12 children and themselves off a high building and die for their “lifestyle”.

The age of consent in Mormonism is 8. At age 10 I was sold to the Lebarons as a wife by a man named Shirl Allred. He had taken up with my Great-Grandmother. He felt as the new Patricarch of the family he had more knowelege than my parents about my age of consent. Twice they tried to kidnap me.

I have a growth hormone disorder called Soto’s Syndrome that had me fully grown at 13. The only reason they wanted me was to try and justify the 13 and 14 year old marriages because the young women were “fully” grown. The Lebarons were just to work the raw edges off me untill they could get me in shape to be married. They were looking for a Supreme Court Lawsuit that would make the papers and “show their plight”.

I had already been raped twice to tame down my native blood. I was treated like that because there was no threat to anyones freedom from me, they could just say it was consentual. The first rape was so arrogant that they filmed it with a super-8 cammera.

The film got out nd there have been numerous attempts to blackmail my family with it which were promptly turned over to the FBI. My adoptive parents were good christian people that felt that strong example of the right way to live was better for the “plygs” than any punitive measures. I do not.

These are the Drama Queens of the planet. We could put little crowns on their little heads for all the attention they have gotten for their plight.

They take the cake, the whole ball of wax in one little parade. Those poor people that have to live next door to them and try to stay christian. I am starting to think that the Sundance festival should be introduced to their cult just so they can sit and upstage each other.

By: Alex

Alex — Thu, 15 May 2008 05:20:58 +0000

Hi, I found the post quite interesting. I think the limit has to do with how much pressure you put on somebody to conform to your religion and how much choice they have in the matter. People pass on their religious views to their children from a young age, but I think they do owe it to them to at least represent another viewpoint, like to say they believe something but that other people would disagree. I think a lot of religious parents simply pass on their beliefs as fact, like this is the way things are, God unquestionably exists because Mom and Dad say so. People should reach an age where they no longer see their own parents as infallible before being asked to accept an infallible God.

I don’t know, just a comment. It’s a tough issue.

As for the FLDS issue, in a situation like this, it’s very difficult to separate the abusers from the abused. I wrote an article on it last night that you might be interested in. It discusses the idea that if polygamy (consentual polygamy, let’s say) had not been outlawed and marginalized, these cults would not have formed and polygamist religions would have conformed to certain social norms and legal age requirements. I hope you don’t mind my putting a link here, I thought your article was interesting and I think you might be interested in mine. Feel free to remove it if it bothers you.

http://shortcircuitnewswire.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/analysis-of-flds-debacle-intolerance-plays-role-in-development-of-dangerous-cults/

By: Oscarandre

Oscarandre — Fri, 02 May 2008 10:43:21 +0000

A very provoking post, Tim, more for the extension of the reflection that sometimes the abuse of children may even extend to the spiritiual dimension. In many ways, the history of childhood is a history of abuse in many more ways than sexual (look at their exploitation in the Industrial Revolution, their “marriage” in tribal cultures, female circumcision, child soldiers under Pol Pot etc.). But there are also questions to be asked, as you have, about the extent to which we inculcate our spiritual beliefs at an age well before children are able to exercise rational choice. Of course, you could add to this the plethora of bigotary, prejudice and falsehood that some children are also victims of in families. The difference with “spiritual abuse” is that we usually do it with love…thanks for an interesting piece.

By: tiffanytaylor

tiffanytaylor — Fri, 02 May 2008 01:36:43 +0000

Excellent and fascinating. I’ve been thinking about responding since yesterday, and realized that I’d end up hijacking your comment section. So, I’ve written an entry with my thoughts.

By: the age of accountability « more than the sum of my parts

the age of accountability « more than the sum of my parts — Fri, 02 May 2008 01:36:24 +0000

[...] 1, 2008 · No Comments Tim has written an excellent, thought-provoking essay about the FLDS sect and their indoctrination of woman and children into the belief that it’s [...]

By: Linda Sherman

Linda Sherman — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:12:21 +0000

Tim, This is a really excellent post. Amongst other things I was struck by your statement:
“What then, of the mothers who did nothing? Are they not just as guilty of complicity in this crime?”

How many children have been abused by fathers in family situations where the mother feels so bullied that she does not rise to defend her own children? I suspect many. In later years the anger at the father is easy to sort out and even forgive because it is so straight forward but the lingering repressed anger at the mother is much more confusing.

I support any organization that helps women to stand up for themselves and their children against their abusive husbands and leave a bad marriage. It may sound trivial, but my dream is that the product I represent for North America, Singelringen, helps them do that. Singelringen is a unisex ring that reminds the single wearer that they are already complete, while open to possibilities. Too many women are afraid to leave bad marriages because they don’t believe in themselves enough.